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	<title>Comments on: Two jurors sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G</title>
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	<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/</link>
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		<title>By: Miranda</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/comment-page-1/#comment-44973</link>
		<dc:creator>Miranda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=2004#comment-44973</guid>
		<description>I disagree that dinner and sex, or golf and sex, are the same thing for these purposes.  Forgive me, but come on people, get real. We may golf with a colleague or even a stranger; We may dine with a colleague or acquaintance. We (generally) do not have sex with such people.  Sometimes, sure, it happens - but I think it&#039;s fair to say that if two people are having sexual relations (esp. on an ongoing basis), they have an intimate relationship that would not exist but for the sex. If we agree on that, then surely we can agree that knowing two jurors are sleeping together is more troubling than knowing they&#039;re dining or golfing together. 

If I&#039;m a defense attorney trying the case, and I hear that two jurors dined together alone one night in the hotel, I might wonder if the case came up, but I doubt I&#039;d be able to convince a judge that there is reason to hold a hearing about it.  I might even decide I don&#039;t WANT to make a stink about it for fear of angering jurors for making a specious allegation. 

If I&#039;m a defense attorney trying the case, and I hear that two jurors are having a sexual relationship, I am not so willing to assume the court&#039;s instructions were followed.  I think the intimacy of the relationship is enough to warrant asking some simple questions of the jurors.  Maybe it&#039;s nothing; I don&#039;t think the relationship necessarily means something improper happened.  But I agree with Gideon that a hearing is warranted.  We share things with intimate friends and lovers that we don&#039;t share with others.  Maybe these two people are just having fun, but maybe they&#039;ve developed a trust for each other and have confided in each other in a way that violated the court&#039;s instructions and denied the defendant a fair trial.  It&#039;s worth asking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree that dinner and sex, or golf and sex, are the same thing for these purposes.  Forgive me, but come on people, get real. We may golf with a colleague or even a stranger; We may dine with a colleague or acquaintance. We (generally) do not have sex with such people.  Sometimes, sure, it happens &#8211; but I think it&#8217;s fair to say that if two people are having sexual relations (esp. on an ongoing basis), they have an intimate relationship that would not exist but for the sex. If we agree on that, then surely we can agree that knowing two jurors are sleeping together is more troubling than knowing they&#8217;re dining or golfing together. </p>
<p>If I&#8217;m a defense attorney trying the case, and I hear that two jurors dined together alone one night in the hotel, I might wonder if the case came up, but I doubt I&#8217;d be able to convince a judge that there is reason to hold a hearing about it.  I might even decide I don&#8217;t WANT to make a stink about it for fear of angering jurors for making a specious allegation. </p>
<p>If I&#8217;m a defense attorney trying the case, and I hear that two jurors are having a sexual relationship, I am not so willing to assume the court&#8217;s instructions were followed.  I think the intimacy of the relationship is enough to warrant asking some simple questions of the jurors.  Maybe it&#8217;s nothing; I don&#8217;t think the relationship necessarily means something improper happened.  But I agree with Gideon that a hearing is warranted.  We share things with intimate friends and lovers that we don&#8217;t share with others.  Maybe these two people are just having fun, but maybe they&#8217;ve developed a trust for each other and have confided in each other in a way that violated the court&#8217;s instructions and denied the defendant a fair trial.  It&#8217;s worth asking.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Pesci</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/comment-page-1/#comment-44966</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Pesci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 03:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=2004#comment-44966</guid>
		<description>OK, so here&#039;s what we&#039;ve got: Two jurors had a little recreational sex. How does that impinge on the case? Why couldn&#039;t they be deliberative and serious aboutb their jury business after the sex? Is there something about sex that makes people frivolous? Actually, SPO&#039;s point is a good one. Suppose they had played golf with each other. Would this sporting intercourse (forgive the pun) have affected their deliberation? It all seems pretty iffy. If you are arguing that the two, having done X, are no longer fit to serve on the jury deciding the case, it seems to me you have to make your case -- just like any good attorney might do. What is it about X that makes them no longer fit to decide the case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, so here&#8217;s what we&#8217;ve got: Two jurors had a little recreational sex. How does that impinge on the case? Why couldn&#8217;t they be deliberative and serious aboutb their jury business after the sex? Is there something about sex that makes people frivolous? Actually, SPO&#8217;s point is a good one. Suppose they had played golf with each other. Would this sporting intercourse (forgive the pun) have affected their deliberation? It all seems pretty iffy. If you are arguing that the two, having done X, are no longer fit to serve on the jury deciding the case, it seems to me you have to make your case &#8212; just like any good attorney might do. What is it about X that makes them no longer fit to decide the case?</p>
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		<title>By: Jdog</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/comment-page-1/#comment-44963</link>
		<dc:creator>Jdog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=2004#comment-44963</guid>
		<description>I doubt it.  Why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt it.  Why?</p>
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		<title>By: Edintally</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/comment-page-1/#comment-44961</link>
		<dc:creator>Edintally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=2004#comment-44961</guid>
		<description>Jdog,

Can I get a list of the books you read?

Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jdog,</p>
<p>Can I get a list of the books you read?</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Gideon</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/comment-page-1/#comment-44958</link>
		<dc:creator>Gideon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=2004#comment-44958</guid>
		<description>The problem with all of this is that it&#039;s conjecture. We don&#039;t know what happened or what the jurors did or didn&#039;t do. 

That&#039;s why the hearing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with all of this is that it&#8217;s conjecture. We don&#8217;t know what happened or what the jurors did or didn&#8217;t do. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s why the hearing.</p>
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		<title>By: Jdog</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/comment-page-1/#comment-44957</link>
		<dc:creator>Jdog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=2004#comment-44957</guid>
		<description>I think the discussing stuff except when they&#039;re not supposed to thing is serious, but the sex?  

They&#039;re &lt;strike&gt;locked up in a hotel&lt;/strike&gt; sequestered, and while they&#039;re supposed to spend some amount of time deliberating, I don&#039;t see any fundamental difference for them to spend their down time (so to speak) getting down vs. reading a book or something.  Say they spent their free time playing bridge -- would that be, properly, the cause for a new trial?

Now, if it were during deliberations, and they were running a small duplicate game . . .

&quot;Two spades.  I dunno.  Didn&#039;t sound like self-defense.  What do you think?&quot;

&quot;Pass.&quot;

&quot;Was that a bid, or did you just not want to comment?&quot;

&quot;Both.&quot;

&quot;Okay.  Three no trump.  I&#039;m sure that it was self-defense.&quot;

&quot;Double.&quot;

&quot;Lead.&quot;

&quot;No, I meant that I&#039;m sure, too.  I just pass . . . &quot;

I think there&#039;d be a good argument.  But the essence would be &lt;i&gt;doing something else instead of deliberating&lt;/i&gt; rather than &lt;i&gt;enjoying the downtime in an unusual way&lt;/i&gt;.  

That make any sense at all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the discussing stuff except when they&#8217;re not supposed to thing is serious, but the sex?  </p>
<p>They&#8217;re <strike>locked up in a hotel</strike> sequestered, and while they&#8217;re supposed to spend some amount of time deliberating, I don&#8217;t see any fundamental difference for them to spend their down time (so to speak) getting down vs. reading a book or something.  Say they spent their free time playing bridge &#8212; would that be, properly, the cause for a new trial?</p>
<p>Now, if it were during deliberations, and they were running a small duplicate game . . .</p>
<p>&#8220;Two spades.  I dunno.  Didn&#8217;t sound like self-defense.  What do you think?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Pass.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Was that a bid, or did you just not want to comment?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Both.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Okay.  Three no trump.  I&#8217;m sure that it was self-defense.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Double.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Lead.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;No, I meant that I&#8217;m sure, too.  I just pass . . . &#8221;</p>
<p>I think there&#8217;d be a good argument.  But the essence would be <i>doing something else instead of deliberating</i> rather than <i>enjoying the downtime in an unusual way</i>.  </p>
<p>That make any sense at all?</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan McKeen</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/comment-page-1/#comment-44952</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan McKeen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=2004#comment-44952</guid>
		<description>No difference between sex and dinner? I&#039;m guessing you&#039;re married.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No difference between sex and dinner? I&#8217;m guessing you&#8217;re married.</p>
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		<title>By: Gideon</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/comment-page-1/#comment-44949</link>
		<dc:creator>Gideon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=2004#comment-44949</guid>
		<description>I think the concern - and thus the reason for a hearing - is whether these jurors established a relationship whereby they either did not take their role seriously or were discussing the facts of the case outside the deliberating room.

How did this sexual relationship affect their ability to independently asses the facts and come to their own conclusion as to the guilt or innocence of the defendant?

Jurors are the 6 or 12 people deciding the fate of the defendant. It is imperative that they take their jobs seriously. With allegations like these, it is necessary to conduct a thorough hearing to determine whether any of the jurors took their job less than seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the concern &#8211; and thus the reason for a hearing &#8211; is whether these jurors established a relationship whereby they either did not take their role seriously or were discussing the facts of the case outside the deliberating room.</p>
<p>How did this sexual relationship affect their ability to independently asses the facts and come to their own conclusion as to the guilt or innocence of the defendant?</p>
<p>Jurors are the 6 or 12 people deciding the fate of the defendant. It is imperative that they take their jobs seriously. With allegations like these, it is necessary to conduct a thorough hearing to determine whether any of the jurors took their job less than seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Pesci</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/comment-page-1/#comment-44946</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Pesci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=2004#comment-44946</guid>
		<description>Is it important or not to establish that the two jurors, alleged to have had sex with each other, were discussing the case white they were making the gutteral noises alleged in the complaint? That must have been some conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it important or not to establish that the two jurors, alleged to have had sex with each other, were discussing the case white they were making the gutteral noises alleged in the complaint? That must have been some conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: SPO</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/12/22/two-jurors-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g/comment-page-1/#comment-44942</link>
		<dc:creator>SPO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 06:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=2004#comment-44942</guid>
		<description>This seems like typical defense lawyer BS to me.  If two jurors had dinner together, there wouldnt be an issue, and, other than shock value, there&#039;s not a damned bit of difference between sex and dinner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems like typical defense lawyer BS to me.  If two jurors had dinner together, there wouldnt be an issue, and, other than shock value, there&#8217;s not a damned bit of difference between sex and dinner.</p>
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