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	<title>Comments on: Disparity challenge to death penalty survives motion to dismiss (updated)</title>
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	<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: SPO</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17625</link>
		<dc:creator>SPO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17625</guid>
		<description>Jan, the problem with your citation to Duke Power is that the company can be looked at as a unit--how is that possible with elected officials beholden to local electorates?  If you still argue that disparate impact is important, then what you are arguing is that, sotto voce, the Ct. Constitution requires some kind of equalization with respect to when death is sought.  That cannot be right.  

If you want to make that argument, fine, just be up front about it.  I will note that it exalts the supposed rights of killers over the right of local elected officials to make non-racially biased decisions about the people to seek death against.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jan, the problem with your citation to Duke Power is that the company can be looked at as a unit&#8211;how is that possible with elected officials beholden to local electorates?  If you still argue that disparate impact is important, then what you are arguing is that, sotto voce, the Ct. Constitution requires some kind of equalization with respect to when death is sought.  That cannot be right.  </p>
<p>If you want to make that argument, fine, just be up front about it.  I will note that it exalts the supposed rights of killers over the right of local elected officials to make non-racially biased decisions about the people to seek death against.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17601</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 17:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17601</guid>
		<description>Uhm, I mean -- it's actually NOT like arguing that something is unfair, based on what other employers are doing.  The present challenge to CT's death penalty is similar to the disparate impact employment discrimination law:  the death penalty statute, while facially neutral, is in practice having a disparate impact on minorities.  The argument, as I understand it, is not:  Prosecutor A always seeks the death penalty, so Prosecutor B shouldn't be able to seek it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uhm, I mean &#8212; it&#8217;s actually NOT like arguing that something is unfair, based on what other employers are doing.  The present challenge to CT&#8217;s death penalty is similar to the disparate impact employment discrimination law:  the death penalty statute, while facially neutral, is in practice having a disparate impact on minorities.  The argument, as I understand it, is not:  Prosecutor A always seeks the death penalty, so Prosecutor B shouldn&#8217;t be able to seek it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17600</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 17:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17600</guid>
		<description>SPO said:

&lt;i&gt; It’s like someone trying to prove employment discrimination by arguing what other employers are doing.&lt;/i&gt;

and

&lt;i&gt; Funny how my credibility is negative, but no one can seem to rebut my points . . . .&lt;/i&gt;

Ok. Well, there's an area of employment discrimination law -- it's called Title VII -- where courts have held that even where an employer is  not motivated by a discriminatory intent, it may not use a facially neutral employment practice that has an unjustified adverse impact on members of a protected class.

See, ie., &lt;i&gt;Griggs v. Duke Power Co.&lt;/i&gt;, 401 U.S. 424 (1971).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SPO said:</p>
<p><i> It’s like someone trying to prove employment discrimination by arguing what other employers are doing.</i></p>
<p>and</p>
<p><i> Funny how my credibility is negative, but no one can seem to rebut my points . . . .</i></p>
<p>Ok. Well, there&#8217;s an area of employment discrimination law &#8212; it&#8217;s called Title VII &#8212; where courts have held that even where an employer is  not motivated by a discriminatory intent, it may not use a facially neutral employment practice that has an unjustified adverse impact on members of a protected class.</p>
<p>See, ie., <i>Griggs v. Duke Power Co.</i>, 401 U.S. 424 (1971).</p>
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		<title>By: SPO</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17552</link>
		<dc:creator>SPO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 23:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17552</guid>
		<description>When we're talking about racial discrination, it certainly is possible to argue that the Eighth Amendment is violated whenever racial discrimination enters into the punishment.  My point is, of course, why only death?  It cannot be that the Eighth Amendment/equal protection prohibition on racial discrimination on punishment only engages at death, or more to the point, means that the type of evidence which is admissible to show racial discrimination in death would somehow not be admissible in prosecutions for other crimes.

The upshot of my point is that there is no logical way to distinguish between the ability to use this "evidence" in death cases but not all cases.  "Death is different" doesn't get it done because it's no more acceptable to have racial discrimination in rape cases and if you allow such "evidence" in death cases, but not rape cases, the defendants in rape cases would be justified in saying "what about me?"  You cannot use the Eighth Amendment for the same reason.

We all know that there can be no generalized inquiry into plea bargains and charging decisions--for enormously practical reasons.  Allowing them for death cases is incongruous, and the incongruity is not overcome by the reflexive incantation of "death is different".  

The problem, of course, with this "evidence" is that it doesn't even pass the logical relevance test.  How are independent decisions by prosecutors X, Y and Z relevant to a case prosecuted by prosecutor W.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When we&#8217;re talking about racial discrination, it certainly is possible to argue that the Eighth Amendment is violated whenever racial discrimination enters into the punishment.  My point is, of course, why only death?  It cannot be that the Eighth Amendment/equal protection prohibition on racial discrimination on punishment only engages at death, or more to the point, means that the type of evidence which is admissible to show racial discrimination in death would somehow not be admissible in prosecutions for other crimes.</p>
<p>The upshot of my point is that there is no logical way to distinguish between the ability to use this &#8220;evidence&#8221; in death cases but not all cases.  &#8220;Death is different&#8221; doesn&#8217;t get it done because it&#8217;s no more acceptable to have racial discrimination in rape cases and if you allow such &#8220;evidence&#8221; in death cases, but not rape cases, the defendants in rape cases would be justified in saying &#8220;what about me?&#8221;  You cannot use the Eighth Amendment for the same reason.</p>
<p>We all know that there can be no generalized inquiry into plea bargains and charging decisions&#8211;for enormously practical reasons.  Allowing them for death cases is incongruous, and the incongruity is not overcome by the reflexive incantation of &#8220;death is different&#8221;.  </p>
<p>The problem, of course, with this &#8220;evidence&#8221; is that it doesn&#8217;t even pass the logical relevance test.  How are independent decisions by prosecutors X, Y and Z relevant to a case prosecuted by prosecutor W.</p>
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		<title>By: Miranda</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17548</link>
		<dc:creator>Miranda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 22:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17548</guid>
		<description>Although I have not read any other pleading in this case other than Judge Fuger's decision denying the Motion to Dismiss (so I don't know how the claim was pleaded exactly), your equal protection hangup is narrow-sighted. As Judge Fuger noted in his opinion, the Eighth Amendment (or Connecticut's version of it) is absolutely implicated:

First, Judge Fuger quotes from Furman v. Georgia: “It would seem to be incontestable that the death penalty inflicted on one defendant is ‘unusual’ if it discriminates against him by reason of his race, religion, wealth, social position, or class, or if it is imposed under a procedure that gives room for the play of such prejudices.”

Then, Judge Fuger explains:
"That is the gravamen of the complaint.  The petition is not a global challenge to the death penalty, instead, the petition alleges that there is an impermissible racial disparity and other impermissible factors that creep into the decisions to charge, to prosecute, to impose and to inflict this most ultimate of penalties.  The petition clearly asserts that this is a violation of the Constitution of the State of Connecticut."

In my view, SPO, there are many different constitutional provisions that may prohibit the implementation of the death penalty under circumstances alleged by the petitioners here. The "cruel and unusual" - and yes, "death is different" - analysis seems squarely at play here.

I went back and re-read your posts, but I'm not sure I understand your criticism of Judge Fuger's decision, especially if your position is that the Motion to Dismiss should have been granted because the petitioners failed to state a legally cognizable equal protection claim.  That wasn't addressed (or seemingly raised by the Respondent) at all in the decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I have not read any other pleading in this case other than Judge Fuger&#8217;s decision denying the Motion to Dismiss (so I don&#8217;t know how the claim was pleaded exactly), your equal protection hangup is narrow-sighted. As Judge Fuger noted in his opinion, the Eighth Amendment (or Connecticut&#8217;s version of it) is absolutely implicated:</p>
<p>First, Judge Fuger quotes from Furman v. Georgia: “It would seem to be incontestable that the death penalty inflicted on one defendant is ‘unusual’ if it discriminates against him by reason of his race, religion, wealth, social position, or class, or if it is imposed under a procedure that gives room for the play of such prejudices.”</p>
<p>Then, Judge Fuger explains:<br />
&#8220;That is the gravamen of the complaint.  The petition is not a global challenge to the death penalty, instead, the petition alleges that there is an impermissible racial disparity and other impermissible factors that creep into the decisions to charge, to prosecute, to impose and to inflict this most ultimate of penalties.  The petition clearly asserts that this is a violation of the Constitution of the State of Connecticut.&#8221;</p>
<p>In my view, SPO, there are many different constitutional provisions that may prohibit the implementation of the death penalty under circumstances alleged by the petitioners here. The &#8220;cruel and unusual&#8221; - and yes, &#8220;death is different&#8221; - analysis seems squarely at play here.</p>
<p>I went back and re-read your posts, but I&#8217;m not sure I understand your criticism of Judge Fuger&#8217;s decision, especially if your position is that the Motion to Dismiss should have been granted because the petitioners failed to state a legally cognizable equal protection claim.  That wasn&#8217;t addressed (or seemingly raised by the Respondent) at all in the decision.</p>
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		<title>By: SPO</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17545</link>
		<dc:creator>SPO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 21:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17545</guid>
		<description>Miranda, death is different--that's an 8th Amendment concept, not an Equal Protection Clause issue.  Thus, if you can use the proffered evidence to toss the death penalty because of racial bias, then theoretically, you should be able to do so for every criminal prosecution, which is obviously an absurd proposition.  Which, of course, undermines the argument for being able to do it in death cases.  Just because "death is different" doesn't mean it gets to be a slogan, and that statement doesn't mean that you can impose two tiers of scrutiny with respect to the Equal Protection Clause.  If statewide data is kosher for evaluating the fairness of seeking the DP, then its kosher for evaluating plea deals and charging decisions.  

I am a lot smarter than you guys give me credit for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miranda, death is different&#8211;that&#8217;s an 8th Amendment concept, not an Equal Protection Clause issue.  Thus, if you can use the proffered evidence to toss the death penalty because of racial bias, then theoretically, you should be able to do so for every criminal prosecution, which is obviously an absurd proposition.  Which, of course, undermines the argument for being able to do it in death cases.  Just because &#8220;death is different&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean it gets to be a slogan, and that statement doesn&#8217;t mean that you can impose two tiers of scrutiny with respect to the Equal Protection Clause.  If statewide data is kosher for evaluating the fairness of seeking the DP, then its kosher for evaluating plea deals and charging decisions.  </p>
<p>I am a lot smarter than you guys give me credit for.</p>
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		<title>By: Miranda</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17530</link>
		<dc:creator>Miranda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 18:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17530</guid>
		<description>Why is death different? Because the Supreme Court says so.  No need to get into a discussion about why or if it should be; death is different. (I am too lazy to list the scores of opinions citing this principle, but I'm sure you've seen them, which makes your comment all the more curious).

This is not a slippery slope.  This claim specifically applies to the sentence of death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is death different? Because the Supreme Court says so.  No need to get into a discussion about why or if it should be; death is different. (I am too lazy to list the scores of opinions citing this principle, but I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ve seen them, which makes your comment all the more curious).</p>
<p>This is not a slippery slope.  This claim specifically applies to the sentence of death.</p>
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		<title>By: SPO</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17379</link>
		<dc:creator>SPO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17379</guid>
		<description>SV, certainly you don't have to rebut my points . . . .  but I find it interesting that people will throw out nonsense like "geographic disparity" as if there's some right to fairness as between counties within a state, and no one can seem to defend it.  There simply cannot be such a right, why---because the system is set up so that each local prosecutor makes the decision on whether to seek death.  And it is simply impossible to believe that the Connecticut Constitution, sotto voce, imposed a requirement that local prosecutors somehow coordinate how and when they seek death, and this is to say nothing about dealing with how things change over time with respect to when death is sought. 

As for racial discrimination--I know it sounds nice to bleat on about how "race should never have anything to do with a death sentence" and how "we should do everything to ensure that it does not".  But the reality is that we have prosecutors, judges and juries making decisions in each death case--how are those decisions applicable to another death case, with different prosecutors, judges and jurors?  Now maybe if there's a smoking gun, as in the Miller-el case or maybe you can prove a single prosecutor has prosecuted in a racially biased manner (and that's not, by the way, showing one Batson violation), then maybe he doesn't get to be a prosecutor anymore or maybe the office is DQ'd.  But we don't use that to undermine all death prosecutions in the state.  

And why would we stop here?  If you have a harsh prosecutor who has a draconian "plead to the lead" policy, isn't there "unfairness" because other criminals are getting better deals in other jurisdictions?  What if one county does more to load up charges than others?  Why is the death penalty so different?  

Same goes for race.  Let's bring in race in every single trial.  Why is death different?  It certainly isn't with respect to Equal Protection.

The claims of the defendants are bogus, and shame on the trial judge for not recognizing it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SV, certainly you don&#8217;t have to rebut my points . . . .  but I find it interesting that people will throw out nonsense like &#8220;geographic disparity&#8221; as if there&#8217;s some right to fairness as between counties within a state, and no one can seem to defend it.  There simply cannot be such a right, why&#8212;because the system is set up so that each local prosecutor makes the decision on whether to seek death.  And it is simply impossible to believe that the Connecticut Constitution, sotto voce, imposed a requirement that local prosecutors somehow coordinate how and when they seek death, and this is to say nothing about dealing with how things change over time with respect to when death is sought. </p>
<p>As for racial discrimination&#8211;I know it sounds nice to bleat on about how &#8220;race should never have anything to do with a death sentence&#8221; and how &#8220;we should do everything to ensure that it does not&#8221;.  But the reality is that we have prosecutors, judges and juries making decisions in each death case&#8211;how are those decisions applicable to another death case, with different prosecutors, judges and jurors?  Now maybe if there&#8217;s a smoking gun, as in the Miller-el case or maybe you can prove a single prosecutor has prosecuted in a racially biased manner (and that&#8217;s not, by the way, showing one Batson violation), then maybe he doesn&#8217;t get to be a prosecutor anymore or maybe the office is DQ&#8217;d.  But we don&#8217;t use that to undermine all death prosecutions in the state.  </p>
<p>And why would we stop here?  If you have a harsh prosecutor who has a draconian &#8220;plead to the lead&#8221; policy, isn&#8217;t there &#8220;unfairness&#8221; because other criminals are getting better deals in other jurisdictions?  What if one county does more to load up charges than others?  Why is the death penalty so different?  </p>
<p>Same goes for race.  Let&#8217;s bring in race in every single trial.  Why is death different?  It certainly isn&#8217;t with respect to Equal Protection.</p>
<p>The claims of the defendants are bogus, and shame on the trial judge for not recognizing it.</p>
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		<title>By: Gideon</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17378</link>
		<dc:creator>Gideon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17378</guid>
		<description>Because I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you when you're pulling stuff out of thin air and don't even have the good sense to read the decision before engaging in a vilification of that decision. It's a waste of everyone's time and is particularly pointless. Sorry, SPO,  I'm not going to take you seriously anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because I&#8217;m not going to waste my time arguing with you when you&#8217;re pulling stuff out of thin air and don&#8217;t even have the good sense to read the decision before engaging in a vilification of that decision. It&#8217;s a waste of everyone&#8217;s time and is particularly pointless. Sorry, SPO,  I&#8217;m not going to take you seriously anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: SaucyVixen</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17377</link>
		<dc:creator>SaucyVixen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2008/02/28/disparity-challenge-to-death-penalty-survives-motion-to-dismiss/#comment-17377</guid>
		<description>Dear Lord, why???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Lord, why???</p>
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