Comments on: Two new studies on sentencing disparity and attorney performance http://apublicdefender.com/2007/11/29/two-new-studies-on-sentencing-disparity-and-attorney-performance/ Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:29:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Gideon http://apublicdefender.com/2007/11/29/two-new-studies-on-sentencing-disparity-and-attorney-performance/comment-page-1/#comment-9156 Gideon Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:49:25 +0000 http://apublicdefender.com/2007/11/29/two-new-studies-on-sentencing-disparity-and-attorney-performance/#comment-9156 Scoplaw, I quite agree with you, but as Scott often points out, our viewpoint is different from that of the non-pd lawyer. After all, the study was conducted by a U of Chicago professor and as seen by my follow up post, not everyone has the same reaction. We see no difference because we're in the trenches and we know what it takes to be successful. The vast majority don't. Scoplaw, I quite agree with you, but as Scott often points out, our viewpoint is different from that of the non-pd lawyer. After all, the study was conducted by a U of Chicago professor and as seen by my follow up post, not everyone has the same reaction.

We see no difference because we’re in the trenches and we know what it takes to be successful. The vast majority don’t.

]]> By: Some things that I don’t get | a public defender http://apublicdefender.com/2007/11/29/two-new-studies-on-sentencing-disparity-and-attorney-performance/comment-page-1/#comment-9145 Some things that I don’t get | a public defender Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:11:56 +0000 http://apublicdefender.com/2007/11/29/two-new-studies-on-sentencing-disparity-and-attorney-performance/#comment-9145 [...] « Two new studies on sentencing disparity and attorney performance [...] [...] « Two new studies on sentencing disparity and attorney performance [...]

]]> By: nonya http://apublicdefender.com/2007/11/29/two-new-studies-on-sentencing-disparity-and-attorney-performance/comment-page-1/#comment-9138 nonya Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:00:31 +0000 http://apublicdefender.com/2007/11/29/two-new-studies-on-sentencing-disparity-and-attorney-performance/#comment-9138 Doc Review is reading large amounts discovery. I have been involved in civil cases with ROOMS full of disclosed document. Someone has to read them, code them (that is put in pre-formatted shorthand what the doc means), and hot doc them (think look for smoking guns). You generally need someone with some degree of legal experience and/or training (senior paralegal or junior attorney) to do it. Doc Review is reading large amounts discovery. I have been involved in civil cases with ROOMS full of disclosed document. Someone has to read them, code them (that is put in pre-formatted shorthand what the doc means), and hot doc them (think look for smoking guns). You generally need someone with some degree of legal experience and/or training (senior paralegal or junior attorney) to do it.

]]> By: Scoplaw http://apublicdefender.com/2007/11/29/two-new-studies-on-sentencing-disparity-and-attorney-performance/comment-page-1/#comment-9133 Scoplaw Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:50:44 +0000 http://apublicdefender.com/2007/11/29/two-new-studies-on-sentencing-disparity-and-attorney-performance/#comment-9133 Just wanted to point out that the second study really only suggests if you're a good enough trial lawyer to handle felonies in the Vegas PDs office, you're pretty much as good as your peers. Except the experienced PDs have more experience (and thus get better results) than their less experienced fellows. Duh. It's really not a great study - it seems like sort of a straw-man argument and screams small sample size. For example, it's no surprise to me that someone who has 10 years of experience with the law, courts, judges, and has gone to trial often will secure a better result than someone with 6 months of experience. If the study really wanted to see if LS affected sentencing outcomes, you'd think they'd be comparing attorneys of similar courtroom experience and different educational backgrounds. There's also the question of just how much LS affects a PDs performance a few years down the line. As the study admits, we don't know much about the backgrounds of the different PDs - just the bare rank of their law school. No mention of if they did a clinic, if they took a "big law" curriculum, or how much training they received at the PDs office post-law school (nor for that matter how much other legal experience they may have had before being hired by the PDs office.) We also don't know how many people leave the PDs office prior to handling felonies, nor what their background is. Lastly (and this is the real killer for me) - not all felony cases are created equal. I'm sure the felony attorneys don't take 100 cases to trial each year. If they plead out 50 very weak cases to good sentences, then that's going to flatten the data on the outcome of those cases that actually go to trial - and I'd submit that's where attorney skill might actually have a great impact. We'd probably also want to exclude flawed cases brought to trial for political reasons by the state attorney's office - cases doomed to be nolle prossed are just not reflective of the defense attorney's abilities. It's an interesting issue, but they didn't really ask the right questions to address it. ** Anecdotally, I will say that I don't notice any real difference in outcomes between T1, T2 T3 and T4 LS grads here in Miami, although I'm not in the felony courtrooms all that much. (In fact, I often forget where people went to law school - it just does not interest me as much as whatever they have to say about legal issue X *at that moment*.) Just wanted to point out that the second study really only suggests if you’re a good enough trial lawyer to handle felonies in the Vegas PDs office, you’re pretty much as good as your peers. Except the experienced PDs have more experience (and thus get better results) than their less experienced fellows.

Duh.

It’s really not a great study – it seems like sort of a straw-man argument and screams small sample size.

For example, it’s no surprise to me that someone who has 10 years of experience with the law, courts, judges, and has gone to trial often will secure a better result than someone with 6 months of experience. If the study really wanted to see if LS affected sentencing outcomes, you’d think they’d be comparing attorneys of similar courtroom experience and different educational backgrounds.

There’s also the question of just how much LS affects a PDs performance a few years down the line. As the study admits, we don’t know much about the backgrounds of the different PDs – just the bare rank of their law school. No mention of if they did a clinic, if they took a “big law” curriculum, or how much training they received at the PDs office post-law school (nor for that matter how much other legal experience they may have had before being hired by the PDs office.)

We also don’t know how many people leave the PDs office prior to handling felonies, nor what their background is.

Lastly (and this is the real killer for me) – not all felony cases are created equal. I’m sure the felony attorneys don’t take 100 cases to trial each year. If they plead out 50 very weak cases to good sentences, then that’s going to flatten the data on the outcome of those cases that actually go to trial – and I’d submit that’s where attorney skill might actually have a great impact. We’d probably also want to exclude flawed cases brought to trial for political reasons by the state attorney’s office – cases doomed to be nolle prossed are just not reflective of the defense attorney’s abilities.

It’s an interesting issue, but they didn’t really ask the right questions to address it.

**

Anecdotally, I will say that I don’t notice any real difference in outcomes between T1, T2 T3 and T4 LS grads here in Miami, although I’m not in the felony courtrooms all that much. (In fact, I often forget where people went to law school – it just does not interest me as much as whatever they have to say about legal issue X *at that moment*.)

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