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	<title>Comments on: The trial tax or &#8220;Life takes Visa&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/</link>
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		<title>By: Might OJ Simpson have a Sanders claim? &#124; a public defender</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/comment-page-1/#comment-44648</link>
		<dc:creator>Might OJ Simpson have a Sanders claim? &#124; a public defender</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/#comment-44648</guid>
		<description>[...] is making is a voluntary, informed one. Let&#8217;s be honest, any pre-trial offer will usually be significantly lower than any sentence imposed after trial. Frankly, why would you want it any other [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is making is a voluntary, informed one. Let&#8217;s be honest, any pre-trial offer will usually be significantly lower than any sentence imposed after trial. Frankly, why would you want it any other [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rantor</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/comment-page-1/#comment-6066</link>
		<dc:creator>Rantor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/#comment-6066</guid>
		<description>What hacks me off if you argue for a lesser, the judges still punish you if you get that result.  One thing I have done is tell the court what I thought the verdict would be and what sentence we would have agreed to pleading to that charge before trial.  When the result I predicted occurs, I remind the court of what we would have pled to and argue strongly that to anything else would be punishing the person for going to trial.  So far I have had reasonable succes with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What hacks me off if you argue for a lesser, the judges still punish you if you get that result.  One thing I have done is tell the court what I thought the verdict would be and what sentence we would have agreed to pleading to that charge before trial.  When the result I predicted occurs, I remind the court of what we would have pled to and argue strongly that to anything else would be punishing the person for going to trial.  So far I have had reasonable succes with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Gideon</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/comment-page-1/#comment-6028</link>
		<dc:creator>Gideon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/#comment-6028</guid>
		<description>[quote comment=&quot;6010&quot;]

First, what of the state&#039;s argument that taking a case to trial is a reflection of the defendant&#039;s refusal to accept responsibility for his actions (as opposed to a plea situation)?  Not an explicit argument against anyone&#039;s right to a trial, but certainly seems to put the defendant in a different position for sentencing.[/quote] Absolutely. That is also compounded by the disadvantage to the client who continues to profess his innocence in the face of a guilty verdict. I&#039;ve seen judges go off on defendants for maintaining that position after trial.

[quote]Second, isn&#039;t there an argument that by accepting a plea, the defendant effectively &quot;saves&quot; the witnesses from having to come to court to testify.  Financial concerns aside, testifying in a courtroom full of strangers, being subjected to rigorous cross-examination, taking time off work, etc all puts additional stress on all the witnesses, particularly the victims.  Though more pronounced in violent crime cases and cases involving children, some trace of that exists in every criminal case.[/quote] Yes and that is part of the bargaining process. But is it worth &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; much more that the sentences are significantly higher after trial than they were pre-trial?
[/quote]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[quote comment="6010"]</p>
<p>First, what of the state&#8217;s argument that taking a case to trial is a reflection of the defendant&#8217;s refusal to accept responsibility for his actions (as opposed to a plea situation)?  Not an explicit argument against anyone&#8217;s right to a trial, but certainly seems to put the defendant in a different position for sentencing.[/quote] Absolutely. That is also compounded by the disadvantage to the client who continues to profess his innocence in the face of a guilty verdict. I&#8217;ve seen judges go off on defendants for maintaining that position after trial.</p>
<p>[quote]Second, isn&#8217;t there an argument that by accepting a plea, the defendant effectively &#8220;saves&#8221; the witnesses from having to come to court to testify.  Financial concerns aside, testifying in a courtroom full of strangers, being subjected to rigorous cross-examination, taking time off work, etc all puts additional stress on all the witnesses, particularly the victims.  Though more pronounced in violent crime cases and cases involving children, some trace of that exists in every criminal case.[/quote] Yes and that is part of the bargaining process. But is it worth <i>that</i> much more that the sentences are significantly higher after trial than they were pre-trial?<br />
[/quote]</p>
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		<title>By: Gideon</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/comment-page-1/#comment-6027</link>
		<dc:creator>Gideon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/#comment-6027</guid>
		<description>[quote comment=&quot;6016&quot;]I guess I&#039;m not the only one who saw that ad as a metaphor for the criminal justice system. Actually, I find it completely creepy, but that&#039;s me.

But that ad demonstrates why it&#039;s so vital to do trials on the triable cases. If you don&#039;t disrupt the line, the presumption of guilt builds up too much momentum. Judges NEED to be reminded that the probable cause statement isn&#039;t all there is to a case. The best way I&#039;ve found to do that is making them sit through trials and be reminded of how different things can look when the whole story comes out.[/quote]

Why do you think it&#039;s creepy? It&#039;s eerie and kinda funny, to be sure, but I don&#039;t see creepy.

I agree, however, that defense attorneys should not be afraid to threaten trial (in the appropriate cases, of course) and remind the other &quot;participants&quot; that if they don&#039;t make reasonable offers, you will put them through the effort of proving their case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[quote comment="6016"]I guess I&#8217;m not the only one who saw that ad as a metaphor for the criminal justice system. Actually, I find it completely creepy, but that&#8217;s me.</p>
<p>But that ad demonstrates why it&#8217;s so vital to do trials on the triable cases. If you don&#8217;t disrupt the line, the presumption of guilt builds up too much momentum. Judges NEED to be reminded that the probable cause statement isn&#8217;t all there is to a case. The best way I&#8217;ve found to do that is making them sit through trials and be reminded of how different things can look when the whole story comes out.[/quote]</p>
<p>Why do you think it&#8217;s creepy? It&#8217;s eerie and kinda funny, to be sure, but I don&#8217;t see creepy.</p>
<p>I agree, however, that defense attorneys should not be afraid to threaten trial (in the appropriate cases, of course) and remind the other &#8220;participants&#8221; that if they don&#8217;t make reasonable offers, you will put them through the effort of proving their case.</p>
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		<title>By: Gideon</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/comment-page-1/#comment-6025</link>
		<dc:creator>Gideon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/#comment-6025</guid>
		<description>Plea strike? What&#039;s that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plea strike? What&#8217;s that?</p>
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		<title>By: S.cotus</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/comment-page-1/#comment-6017</link>
		<dc:creator>S.cotus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/#comment-6017</guid>
		<description>Ah, a &quot;plea strike&quot; .. so that is what the kids are calling it.

There are some ethical issues involved, but IIRC correctly when I last looked at them, I resolved them in favor of the PDs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, a &#8220;plea strike&#8221; .. so that is what the kids are calling it.</p>
<p>There are some ethical issues involved, but IIRC correctly when I last looked at them, I resolved them in favor of the PDs.</p>
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		<title>By: Greybear</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/comment-page-1/#comment-6016</link>
		<dc:creator>Greybear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/#comment-6016</guid>
		<description>I guess I&#039;m not the only one who saw that ad as a metaphor for the criminal justice system. Actually, I find it completely creepy, but that&#039;s me.

But that ad demonstrates why it&#039;s so vital to do trials on the triable cases. If you don&#039;t disrupt the line, the presumption of guilt builds up too much momentum. Judges NEED to be reminded that the probable cause statement isn&#039;t all there is to a case. The best way I&#039;ve found to do that is making them sit through trials and be reminded of how different things can look when the whole story comes out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I&#8217;m not the only one who saw that ad as a metaphor for the criminal justice system. Actually, I find it completely creepy, but that&#8217;s me.</p>
<p>But that ad demonstrates why it&#8217;s so vital to do trials on the triable cases. If you don&#8217;t disrupt the line, the presumption of guilt builds up too much momentum. Judges NEED to be reminded that the probable cause statement isn&#8217;t all there is to a case. The best way I&#8217;ve found to do that is making them sit through trials and be reminded of how different things can look when the whole story comes out.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/comment-page-1/#comment-6010</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:03:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/#comment-6010</guid>
		<description>Interesting post and frankly, I agree with much of what you have written.  We have all seen or at least suspected that this situation frequently occurs.  I think, however, that there may be a few additional concerns/issues at play here.  

First, what of the state&#039;s argument that taking a case to trial is a reflection of the defendant&#039;s refusal to accept responsibility for his actions (as opposed to a plea situation)?  Not an explicit argument against anyone&#039;s right to a trial, but certainly seems to put the defendant in a different position for sentencing.  

Second, isn&#039;t there an argument that by accepting a plea, the defendant effectively &quot;saves&quot; the witnesses from having to come to court to testify.  Financial concerns aside, testifying in a courtroom full of strangers, being subjected to rigorous cross-examination, taking time off work, etc all puts additional stress on all the witnesses, particularly the victims.  Though more pronounced in violent crime cases and cases involving children, some trace of that exists in every criminal case.  

Again, I am not arguing in favor of widely disparate sentences, just suggesting additional reasons for differences between post-trial and post-plea sentences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post and frankly, I agree with much of what you have written.  We have all seen or at least suspected that this situation frequently occurs.  I think, however, that there may be a few additional concerns/issues at play here.  </p>
<p>First, what of the state&#8217;s argument that taking a case to trial is a reflection of the defendant&#8217;s refusal to accept responsibility for his actions (as opposed to a plea situation)?  Not an explicit argument against anyone&#8217;s right to a trial, but certainly seems to put the defendant in a different position for sentencing.  </p>
<p>Second, isn&#8217;t there an argument that by accepting a plea, the defendant effectively &#8220;saves&#8221; the witnesses from having to come to court to testify.  Financial concerns aside, testifying in a courtroom full of strangers, being subjected to rigorous cross-examination, taking time off work, etc all puts additional stress on all the witnesses, particularly the victims.  Though more pronounced in violent crime cases and cases involving children, some trace of that exists in every criminal case.  </p>
<p>Again, I am not arguing in favor of widely disparate sentences, just suggesting additional reasons for differences between post-trial and post-plea sentences.</p>
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		<title>By: name withheld</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/comment-page-1/#comment-6009</link>
		<dc:creator>name withheld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/#comment-6009</guid>
		<description>There are few weapons a PD has in her quiver.  One of the most effective is a plea strike. In jurisdictions run by bean counters they loathe these things &amp; quickly get rid of the trial judge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are few weapons a PD has in her quiver.  One of the most effective is a plea strike. In jurisdictions run by bean counters they loathe these things &amp; quickly get rid of the trial judge.</p>
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		<title>By: S.cotus</title>
		<link>http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/comment-page-1/#comment-6008</link>
		<dc:creator>S.cotus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/2007/09/26/the-trial-tax-or-life-takes-visa/#comment-6008</guid>
		<description>The topic of a “trial tax” is obviously controversial.  However, people seem to have different definitions.  There is one definition that sees it as a kind of prosecutorial cost-balancing.  I don’t really think this is a “tax” per se, but rather a legitimate bargain.  The other kind is where judges increase sentences solely because the person opted for a trial.  This, I think is unconstitutional.

Some people have suggested to me that the only way to deal with this is for public defender agencies to arbitrarily and randomly, as a matter of policy, refuse to enter pleas other than “not guilty” under any circumstances on some days that nobody knows in advance.  Three or four times per year would be enough.

Especially at the misdemeanor level, doing this would result in calamity, and although PDs would be in difficult positions every now and again, the other parties would have to reexamine what their roles and interests are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The topic of a “trial tax” is obviously controversial.  However, people seem to have different definitions.  There is one definition that sees it as a kind of prosecutorial cost-balancing.  I don’t really think this is a “tax” per se, but rather a legitimate bargain.  The other kind is where judges increase sentences solely because the person opted for a trial.  This, I think is unconstitutional.</p>
<p>Some people have suggested to me that the only way to deal with this is for public defender agencies to arbitrarily and randomly, as a matter of policy, refuse to enter pleas other than “not guilty” under any circumstances on some days that nobody knows in advance.  Three or four times per year would be enough.</p>
<p>Especially at the misdemeanor level, doing this would result in calamity, and although PDs would be in difficult positions every now and again, the other parties would have to reexamine what their roles and interests are.</p>
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